Lorinda’s Interview Transcript

Eleanor: Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Lorinda: Well, I’m a retired Oregon Department of Corrections (ODOC) Chaplain, so I have sort of a unique take on things from both sides.
Eleanor: That’s a really valuable perspective.
Lorinda: I did that for 28 years, and was a chaplain for a little over 30 years. I lived in Pendleton, Oregon for that time I worked for the ODOC. I’ve been in Oregon up until last June my entire life, when I moved to Wichita Falls [TX].  I’ve got two kids here in Texas and three in Oregon.
Eleanor: Could you tell me a little bit about your connection with Heather?
Lorinda: Heather is the granddaughter of my husband’s oldest brother, so she’s my great niece, and I’ve known her her entire life. Never been terribly close, though, because her dad moved around a lot for his work. He did, and still does, aircraft, helicopter mechanics, and so he was in various places, and sometimes overseas. We didn’t see that much of her, and as she grew, she sort of distanced herself, I think, because she didn’t really know us that well. They ended up in Minnesota, where they spent quite a bit of time, and we were in Oregon, so we only saw her a couple times, you know, as she was older.
Once all of this went through with her incarceration, her grandmother, who was my sister-in-law, would talk about it. When she became sick, she talked to me a lot about how Heather was going to need support. And yes, she has her mom and dad, but I thought the more support she had the better, so I stepped in because her Grandma passed away, and offered her some support through letters and then through phone calls. I’ve gotten to know her, and sort of became a spiritual mentor for her. She was a young Christian at the time, and she had a lot of questions about the Bible and that sort of thing, and so I would answer those and give her encouragement in her spirituality. We just grew closer together through that. One of my children in particular has then become involved with Heather.  He has five little girls, and she gets to talk to them on the phone and send them gifts she’s crocheted, and things like that.  That’s really meant a lot to her.
Eleanor: And you said that was, your son’s children that have become close with Heather?
Lorinda: Yeah.
Eleanor: I’ve never formally met Heather, but I have gotten to know a little bit about how she enjoys arts and crafts, and especially how her experiences with the Bible and books by Christian writers have been a strong support system for her. What stands out about Heather, for you?
Lorinda: Just the changes that she’s made in her life. By becoming a Christian and really believing in what God tells us to do, she has applied that to her life and made tremendous changes from where she was when the act occurred and she was sentenced. Now my son is actually helping her get confirmed in the Lutheran church. They’re going through lessons together and such.
Eleanor: And does your son live in Minnesota?
Lorinda: No, no, he lives here in Wichita Falls, so he does it over the phone, video visits and things like that.
Eleanor: How has this relationship with Heather impacted your life, or perspective?
Lorinda: Well, I think, from one side, it’s made me more cognizant of what family goes through, because I already had the other side of corrections.  This side has made me more understanding of what family goes through. They’re trying to support someone who’s incarcerated, which I got a little flavor for here and there along the way through my work, but, it’s really different when you’re completely on the other side. Sometimes staff do some really uncaring, sort of what I call stupid things. At times I would sort of feel like they were uncaring and stupid when I was on the other side too.
Eleanor: It sounds like you’re coming at this with a very sort of, as you phrase, looking at it from the other side of being someone who worked within the Department of Corrections and now has a loved one impacted very directly by it. Do you have anything else that you’d like to say on how that has impacted your life or perspective?
Lorinda: Well, I think it’s given me a broader awareness of things. I can see where the state systems are so different (Oregon and Minnesota for instance). There are things that would never be allowed in the Oregon system that happen quite regularly in the Minnesota system. In Oregon, they’re not allowed because they’ve gone through grievance and lawsuit and all of that, and in Minnesota it seems, they’re just sort of tolerated by people. Also, Heather makes me feel very special as her Aunt and very loved. You know, I love it when she calls and we talk. It’s, really super hard when she’s feeling down with things though, because you can’t be there physically to look her in the eye and say it’s going to be okay. Because, I know from having worked in the system, some of the stuff she faces is not okay and it’s not going to be okay, because it’s the way the system is set up.
Eleanor: How often are you able to call?
Lorinda: No, she has to call.
Eleanor: How often is she able to call?
Lorinda: It varies greatly because it greatly depends on lockdowns within the institution, and those are happening because of lack of staffing. They happen if there’s an incident of some sort. They happen if there’s a big special activity going on, you know. So, there’s a lot of different reasons why you get lockdowns within the facility. There are only certain hours the phones are available, and let’s say there’s 75 people for two phones. You’ve gotta be able to wait in line until you can get the phone, and then the phone system doesn’t always function correctly. For instance, the other day, it comes on with a recording and you have to press the zero if you want to accept the call, and I press the zero, and it said, “Thank you for using GTL” and hung up. I realize Heather does know that this happens, but I feel bad.  At first it was almost devastating for me, because I didn’t want her to think I hung up on her. But now it’s just like, “well, the phone did its thing again.” She can’t always call right back, she has activities going on or something that she has to get to, and she was just trying to call me for a couple minutes, you know, right then. But, other times there’s a line of people, and so you have to wait at least 15 minutes before you’re allowed to try your call again. And consequently, and I especially don’t want this to sound negative to Heather, it makes me stop whatever I’m doing and accept her call, because it’s that important to me to talk to her.  I know that I may not get another call for a day or two, you know. I mean, I’ll step out of church, and take the call and say, “Hey, I’m in church right now, is there something you need?” And if she says, “No, I was just calling to chat,” you know, then she’ll say, “well, I’ll call back later sometime.” It’s a very demanding system. When they call you must answer, or you just are out.
Eleanor: Are calls initiated by Heather, mainly the one form of communication that is accessible?
Lorinda: Yes, because of the way they’ve done the tablet, the Minnesota system, and the Oregon system is trying to go this way too, and I think it’s just a nightmare. They switched providers, they switched to GTL, and then they found out GTL was under federal investigation for some fraud and things, and so they had handed out tablets to everybody, and then they decided, nope, they couldn’t go with GTL.  JPay is still available, and you can email on that, but they don’t see that until they get out to where they can go to a kiosk to see it, so it’s not really very immediate. And then if you do written mail, it used to be you could write your letter and send it to them, and they would get it fairly promptly through the system. Now, you write your letter, you send it to an organization in New Hampshire, and that organization has to photocopy the letter and download it and send it to the institution. Then somebody at the institution has to open it up, upload it, look at it, decide if they’re going to let the content in, and then print it out and then give it to them. So, I’ve had a letter take six weeks to get to her, by the time I mail it to this Text Behind organization.
And of course, if you tell Text Behind that, they either say, well, it’s not us, it’s the postal system, and you say, well, I had it tracked. It only took a week to get to you. And they said, Oh, well, it’s not us, it’s the institution, it’s their fault. And they make you pay to send these things through them. I mean, it’s not like a stamp. It’s like, a 1.29 for the letter, and then each attachment is an additional charge. And then, if the institution decides they’re not going to let the attachment through, you have no recourse. You don’t know who to contact at the institution, cause you don’t know who’s looking at this. And, even if you contact the mail room, they’re probably going to say, well, there was something wrong with it, so we violated it. And they don’t print it, they don’t send it in, and Text Behind tells you, right up front, if any of this is found to be non-acceptable content, we have nothing to do with it, that is the institution’s decision.
So you’re paying to have this sent and then, it doesn’t get to Heather. I mean, I sent her pictures of an infant, and they denied one of the pictures because she was laying where you could see a little bit of mom’s upper chest. Mom didn’t have a bra on, of course, because she had been nursing. Well, that was considered sexual content and could not be delivered to Heather. The other pictures I sent of the newborn, like with Daddy holding her, and that kind of thing, they got in. But the one picture I had been sent, with mom in it, which was the person Heather knew, couldn’t go in because of sexual content. So, communicating can be an issue.
And of course, if they go to segregation for some reason, whether it’s their fault or somebody else’s fault, there’s no communication at all then, which is why another inmate actually has my number, so that if Heather goes, if she gets in there, for, you know, a lengthier period of time, they will call and let me know she’s at segregation.
If your loved one goes to the hospital for a reason they consider non-life threatening, say, a compact fracture, the institution won’t let you know.  I understand that from a safety and security standpoint, because I’ve been on the other side of that. You’re protecting your staff who have to be at the hospital with this person from somebody walking in there and saying, “This person’s going with me,” and, you know, shooting or stabbing staff, or from a retaliatory gang hit, if the person happens to be in a gang.  On the other side of it, as a family member, you have no idea why you’re not hearing from this person. You have no idea what’s happened to them until they call you after it’s happened and say, “This is where I was and this is what happened to me.” I don’t know how exactly to correct that, but it’s certainly not family friendly.
Eleanor: Yes, there has to be some sort of way that just hasn’t been thought about. I have to believe, I guess, because otherwise, that’s so frustrating, and I’m sure it causes so much anxiety for many family members.
Lorinda: Well, yeah, you sort of get used to just sort of thinking, you hope they’re in segregation, it’s better than being in the hospital.  That’s why most of them, though, have somebody who will call family and let them know what’s happening. I still keep in contact with a gentleman out of the Oregon system that I knew, and he’s getting ready to have some surgery, and so we both know that he won’t know when it’s going to happen. It’ll just happen. He won’t be in touch with me, and he can’t write a letter while he’s there, because you’ve got all your envelopes that you have to use back in your unit, in your property. So, you know, he did give my phone number to somebody else because I said, I’m not going to know if you go to the hospital for this, or if it ruptured and you’re dead, because of what he’s going through. He said, well, is it okay if I give your phone number to so and so, and then they can call you if I die, and I said yeah, that’s nice. Because his surgery is not considered life threatening, unless something ruptures and then it becomes life threatening.
Eleanor: Well, I hope it goes well. It sounds like that’ll be happening soon, you said.
Lorinda: Nobody really knows. Well, it’s one of those things where you just wait until they disappear.  As a staff member, it used to be a little bit frustrating too, because, you’d have a worker who was going to have to have surgery, and they worked for you, they had certain jobs they did, you counted on them being there every day, then all of a sudden, they didn’t show up. As a staff member, we could go over to health services and say, “Is this because they’ve been taken to hospital?” And they would tell us.
Eleanor: Well, sweet. Thank you. I didn’t even think about that, about how do you get in contact when they’re not allowed to? Or, yeah, so many different things to balance, in terms of keeping staff safe, but also, you know, making sure families stay in the loop.
Lorinda: Yeah, it’s always a hard thing.
Eleanor: Have you had a support network, either among your family members, or friends or have there been other local support networks that has helped you deal with anything that comes up, or any sort of challenges of having someone you care about incarcerated?
Lorinda: Well, family, you know, my other sister-in-law, who’s still living. She and I talk about what’s going on with Heather once in a while.  My kids are part of that support for me, because they all understand when the phone rings and it’s Heather that I’m going to stop what I’m doing with them and answer the phone.  When I went to visit Heather last summer, one of her friends actually asked her mom and dad if I could come stay at their house, so I didn’t have to get a motel.  The way the visiting days were, I had to get there on a Wednesday, and then the visiting was Thursday, Friday, Saturday, so I could visit Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Then Sunday, I went and spent time with her friend in the garden that they had done. Then on Monday, I went ahead and left because visiting wouldn’t be until Thursday again.  It was really, really nice just to have another family to stay with, you know.  Then her [friend’s] mom, through that, started visiting Heather. This individual said Heather doesn’t have anybody closer to visit then you, and you had to come all the way from Texas. I’m like, yeah, her parents are in Idaho, and my sister-in-law is in Idaho, so it’s hard for Heather to get visits. So, her friend’s mom said, well I could go visit her as an outreach, and, you know, she’s a Christian, and we could talk about the Bible. So now she goes in and visits her. That’s been a really nice connection.
Eleanor: What would you say is something that you wish people outside understood about, you know, the experience of having someone you care about being incarcerated?
Lorinda: I think just some of the things we’ve been talking about: the communication process is not easy, and a lot of people just don’t understand that.  There are people who I’ve excused myself from to go take a phone call, who have looked at me really funny. When I come back and explain that it’s got to be when she can contact me, it’s the only time I get to take her phone call, then they’re like, oh, I didn’t know that, you know.  Just that, and understanding that while people are in there, they have programming, and they’re changing if they want to. I mean, they don’t all do it, because some of them just don’t care and don’t want to, but there are a lot of things that the different departments offer to try to help people become better people, so that they wouldn’t do what they did again.
Eleanor: Is there anything specific about Heather that maybe we haven’t mentioned, or anything that we have mentioned that you’d like to restate, like, what would you want people to know about her? Know about her experiences?
Lorinda: I think the fact that she has done a lot to implement positive changes within the system, as well as within herself, and also, she is not that youngster who conspired and thought the only way to get out from a bad marriage was if someone killed her husband. She’s not that person, because she has changed.
Eleanor: She’s been part of so many very important committees within the system that she’s in that I thought was so powerful or inspiring to read. Encouraging change within each other, like having, you know, supporting each other in making changes.
Lorinda: Peer mentorship, yes.
Eleanor: Yeah, which I thought was so, very special.
Lorinda: That’s the valuable piece of having long term people within the system. It’s that, lifers have more at stake because they know they’re going to do a longer time in the system. They’ve got more at stake when it comes to keeping the system calm, under control and improving it, than someone who’s only doing five years or ten, and so that’s why staff are usually very respectful of lifers and listen to them more than they do some of the others, because they realize that they’re there for a longer haul. I actually went in and talked to the lifers’ group in Shakopee early on. It was a very unusual experience for the Minnesota Department of Corrections, because they don’t normally allow family to come in and see a group like that, but they did because of my chaplaincy status. That’s part of the message I tried to import to those people who are lifers; even though a lot of them are doing life with parole, they’re still in there for a much longer period of time, and so they will have a whole different perspective on how the system within that prison is working. They have an investment in seeing to it that it’s fixed, so that it works better.
Eleanor: Yeah, I think that’s really, that’s something that before I started working with the Hope Act committee, I didn’t fully understand the important role that lifers have in making the system better, making sure it works, and getting better than it has been.
Lorinda: Well, and making sure that even staff stay safer, because throughout the US, they want less drama in the system they live in. They’re the ones who have a finger on the pulse inside, so to speak, and know how it’s going day to day. They don’t want a huge incident happening, because it shuts down their life. Where others see it as a temporary interruption, lifers can see it as a shutdown, it can have really negative consequences for how the rest of their time goes. Which is also one of the reasons I think lifers have a bigger stake in looking at, how can I personally change to be a better person, because it’s going to make my life in here easier with staff and others. Very few of them receive much credit for any of the change they’ve done, as far as from the outside, because people don’t look just at who they are today, but they look at who they were, and their crime, and unfortunately, a lot of people who are victims want to continue to promote that because they, they’re hurting, even years later.

Eleanor: I think, yeah, that’s something that many people who are unfamiliar don’t really understand.
Lorinda: Well, most of the American public is missing a complete understanding about restorative justice. It’s all about punishment, and for many victims, that’s what it becomes too, unfortunately, because the victims who heal are often the ones who seek restorative justice. I know that from the perspective of a victim also. I had two friends who were murdered. One of them, I actually went in and had a conversation with the perpetrator, a restorative justice conversation.
Eleanor: I’m sorry for your losses.
With, you know, the possibility of the elimination of a life without parole sentence, what impact do you think that would have on you and your family? If Heather was able to eventually be released?
Lorinda: It would make the family whole again. She’d be able to be back, you know, helping with her parents. Right now, they don’t have anybody close to help, and they’re aging as we all are. For me, I mean, my grandkids love her. They would love to see her in a setting where they could go out to the park with her and swing on the swings and, you know, have a Thanksgiving dinner, or a Christmas meal, or any of that. You know, you can’t do that. There’s no visiting oftentimes on those holidays. And even if there is, it’s not for meals. It’s hard to fly to Minnesota in the middle of December.
There’s always that piece missing, and you know that they’re out there, but they can’t be a part of those family gatherings. Can’t come to the weddings. We don’t always see the family in Idaho all that often, but at weddings, graduations, funerals and other family gatherings. I mean, she wasn’t able to come to her great uncle’s memorials and be there with us.
Eleanor: Are there any ways for you to sort of find hope for your loved one while they’re incarcerated. Or, how do you find hope? What does hope mean for you?
Lorinda: Well, there’s two kinds of hope. For me, there’s hope that eternally, we will be united, because we’re all Christians. So, there is the hope that Christ gives us, that we find in and through Christ, Jesus, who is our Lord and Savior, and he is there. And since we all believe, we know that we will again be together, even though we’re apart now. So that’s one form of hope. The other form is, I think, hoping that she can come back out and that wholeness can be restored in this life, here in this world.
And hope that she’s able to continue to find purpose and value in her life, because that’s what keeps her going in there. You know, people who do not find purpose and don’t find any value in life very often become despondent and suicidal. My hope is that she’d continue to be able to do that, to find things that keep her busy and engaged and helping other people, because that’s where you can find value. So, and of course, I hope that she’s able to realize the dream that she has right now, that hope that she has that she can get out.
Eleanor: I’m sure, we’ve touched on this again, but with something like the Hope Act, or specifically, eliminating life without parole, how do you imagine that would impact people? what would the elimination of life without parole mean for restorative justice becoming a possibility in America?
Lorinda: Well, I think if we would increase restorative justice and lessen incarceration, it would change America as we know it. Because it would no longer be a punitive, rage filled type of system. It would be more of an, let’s come to an understanding and learn and grow together.  Restorative justice provides healing for victims and perpetrators, which leads to better health for all involved and for our communities.  So that’s one way it would change, but also it would just allow that wholeness, individual and collective community, to be restored.  Personally, we would eventually have the hope of being able to look forward to the fact that she’s gonna get out, and when she does, then we can do some of these, you know, special family things together. We can bring her down to Texas and see her.
Also, maybe there can be some things restored for her, if there are broken relationships within her family.  For some they might think, I don’t know if I can deal with this, or other things, and distance themselves. And that happens. I saw that happen as a chaplain too. Families would distance themselves because of the pain of the person being in there, what that meant, and the pain they would have. Some incarcerated people even tell their families, don’t come visit, because it hurts too much that you see me like this, and then you leave. I think those relationships could possibly be restored then. With either family or friends or whoever that has happened with.
Eleanor: That’s very insightful. Thank you. Is there anything else that we didn’t cover that you’d like to share?
Lorinda: Not that I can think of at the moment.
Eleanor: Yes, thank you. I really appreciate taking an hour of your afternoon and chatting with me. Are there any sort of stories, poems, or creative works that you’d like to include as a part of the storytelling project, or maybe resources you’d recommend we look into?
Lorinda: I would just say, the more you can list some restorative justice resources for people, the better. I haven’t done a whole lot recently in that area to know what the best resources are right now, but I’m sure you could find some people that could help you with that.
Eleanor: That’s a really good idea.
Lorinda: That’s what will change people’s minds about passing bills that will change sentencing structures.
Eleanor: Thank you so much for talking today.