Holly Bot’s Call Transcript
Isabella
Perfect. Okay, so we’re recording now. I know you just explained a little bit of this to you, but if you could tell me a little bit about yourself and then your connection to someone inside, and what stands out about them as a person, and how have they impacted your life? And what would you want people on the outside to know about them?
Holly Bot
So, um, I spent 8 years in Shakopee prison, I’m still on probation, so, I was given a 12 year sentence, but there’s 10 years of conditional release. That starts after you’re released, so in all, it’s really an 18 year sentence, 8 years inside the prison, 10 years outside the prison, and I am married to a man who’s serving a 30 prison sentence +10 years conditional release as well and um we were married 3 years ago at Stillwater Prison
Isabella
Wow.
Holly Bot
Yeah, we’ve been together for 7 years. Since not long after I was released from prison. And actually he just tried to call me again so maybe he ha- he can listen while I talk or he can join us if he tries to call back – I didn’t notice till just now.
Isabella
sounds good.
Holly Bot
But um what I would want people to know about an inside outside relationship, and that’s what I call our marriage. It’s an inside outside marriage and just to turn my mood up, but, um, in addition to Corbyn, I visit many women in prison and and even other men, some friends of Corbyn’s, A friend, and here I’m going to answer this real quick. [Corbyn calls – “Thank you for using GTL”]. Hi sweetie. I’m just, um, answering her questions now if you want to listen and join in if you have, uh, [unintelligible]. Okay, thank you…What I was saying is I, yeah, I visit a friend of his as well who’s still at Stillwater. Uh, and one of the reasons that I do that is not so that I can spend time with men other than my husband, but visiting is so important to, um, an inmate’s MnSTARR score, right, at which relates to privileges that they can receive while they’re incarcerated, and it can impact how their release is, um – decisions about their privileges upon release, and what that looks like, can all be determined, in part, by whether they got any visits and how many.
Isabella
Really? I had no idea.
Holly Bot
And, yes, and Corbyn has a friend in Stillwater, who uh wasn’t getting, very many visits, almost none, and um, one way to help his friend, is if I visit his friend you know, every so often, then visit start being recorded for him, which helps to lower his MnSTARR score, and, um, makes his life easier while he is in prison in some ways, and can invite him a better future. So, um, but I also visit my friends that I was incarcerated with and um, emails, phone calls, all of that. I often get asked by people, who would like to do something similar, but they’ve never been incarcerated. They just like the idea of helping someone in prison, um, and they ask if they can talk to me about that, or people get referred to me for that reason, and I, I have to tell these people, it’s really great that you have compassion for them, but you need to know, they don’t see themselves as any different from you, and people are often surprised by that, like, what do you mean? Because they feel so sad for these people. Well, they feel like normal people. They don’t feel like people that, um, like in a condescending kind of way…
Isabella
Right.
Holly Bot
…and you know, they don’t, and um, it’s really true because when I go to visit Corbyn or any of my other friends in prison or talk to them on the phone, those are my friends, and sometimes I need them to call so I can talk, because I need them, and they give me as much or more, than anything I’m giving them as a part of that relationship, when I was incarcerated I never felt, like I had died or like I was, my life was on hold. I was living life. I took college classes. I worked full time. I did all these things, and I felt like I am just forced to live in this one place, but I can still live life a very full life while I stay in this one place. And I know that Corbyn feels the same way so when I began to date him and then we got married, people would ask, “well, why wouldn’t you wait till he gets out of prison?” Why would I wait? He’s living a full life in there. He’s a complete man, and it’s just that he happens to live [there] right now but he can fully contribute. Um, and I know that’s not necessarily by financial means, but, okay, we’re past the days where the man had to provide all the money, like, that’s don’t, don’t get old fashioned on me, while you talk about – well, you talk about, because, listen, many women who have husbands who are great earners, they provide almost nothing emotional to the relationship.
Isabella
Yeah, exactly.
Holly Bot
And so I have all of…often I hear women complain about their marriages or read about it or whatever and I have none of those complaints. Corbyn is amazing. He’s an amazing husband, um, a great leader for our family, and not just for me personally. My parents visit him. He talks to our kids on the phone and all those things, um, giving them leadership and encouragement and support, which we all need. So, that’s what I would say about, what do people know about, need to know, about people who are incarcerated.
Isabella
And that’s so helpful too. I feel like that’s exactly the truth. So many people are quite condescending about it, and I think these relationships need to be very reciprocal and based in care and compassion on both sides.
Holly Bot
Mhm.
Holly Bot
I was just gonna say, Corbyn, did you have any thoughts on what I said?
Corbyn
Yeah, I guess. I think so…as far as being well put together, and that is, a very rare and difficult thing for men to have in here, um the longer that you do, right? Although it’s more common in the people that have longer sentences that actually go through trial and tribulation and calm down and actually learn from their mistakes. Versus people that get out and come back, get out and come back. The idea behind that is the prison even with their programming, there’s very little to support the stability of not only the inmate, the inmates, family, the inmates, friends, right? Anytime they lock us down, they separate us from our family, anytime they enact a new rule, it’s separating us from our families, taking away from not just us, but our families. Taking away from the community. It’s using up taxpayer’s money. Those are the things that the DOC intentionally tries to hide, and they tell my [unintelligible] statements, um, their, their, uh, meetings, and whatever else you want to…[unintelligible]…to the news [unintelligible]. Those little things impact relationships greatly because it’s a false sense of security more than community.
Holly Bot
I think it’s important too to note that the prison supports – has some special parenting related, uh, parenting programs and things where they elevate, which they should – parents should be elevated – and being a father or a mother, there should be special things to make sure there’s a minimized impact on children. But, there should also be a special consideration for marriage relationships, right? Our communities are safer when divorce rates are low, and divorce rate is almost a guaranteed 100% for people who are incarcerated, either during that incarceration, or within a few years after their release, the marriages just don’t survive, and the DOC doesn’t recognize that as a relationship with any support, there’s no programming, there’s no “how to be a good spouse.” There is no programming for that. There’s no “how to live with your spouse,” “how to manage a budget with your spouse.” How to make this movement in a conflict free way with your spouse and so we are training in all of those things and and um, and then the 3rd category of people who need special privileges to maintain relationships is long termmers, right? People life without parole, people with life, people with really long sentences. Then they really, not just for their sake, for the sake of our community, and for the sake of their family, there need to be a little extra in visiting or extras in some other ways. Recognition that we want these people to leave, whole and not maimed, uh, emotionally, uh, by their, by their stay.
Isabella
That’s so true. Do you feel as though the prison and the way it operates is trying to enforce separation among loved ones?
Holly Bot
I think that they’re blind to it, and you know, I, I’ve, me and Corbyn have been together for 7 years and married for three. I’ve never held his hand. I have, you know, obviously never kissed him on the lips. I’ve never seen him sit at a table.
Isabella
Yeah.
Holly Bot
I’ve never seen him walk around and socialize except for once when he graduated with his AA degree and they had a graduation ceremony and I didn’t want to leave because it’s the 1st time I’d seen him walking around uh talking to other people besides me and like a normal social gathering. And so, uh, it’s sad that all of that is true. And um, I think of all the children who don’t get to make memories with their parents who are incarcerated, and I mean real memories. Where you don’t just sit across, you know, 5 year old wants to sit there quietly, but they get kicked out if they’re loud and stuff, so, you know, we’re just talking about, let’s recognize normal human behavior, and um, honor our special, if the government gives us tax breaks for this relationship, then you need to give me a little thing here [laughs] in that prison. You know longer visits would be great or um. You know, I don’t even know of all that I would ask for, but I just think, well, in fact, we can talk about what other states do, California and Washington state, for example, if you’re married, they have buildings on site inside the prison where your family can come and stay once a month with you in an apartment in privacy.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly Bot
Yes, for like a whole weekend. So, if other states can really honor families and marriages in that way, um, and and I think that those are only for people with longer sentences, not short sentences, but it’s a recognition, that family, can be nurtured throughout a long sentence, and the DOC, uh, providing, you know, extra support for that, which is, I think, so important.
Isabella
Absolutely. And Corbyn, did you want to add anything to that too regarding what it’s like to navigate the relationship from inside?
Corbyn
Well, yeah, I guess, um, from my experience, there is a lot of support for victims that uh…women and children are the excuse for the DOC.
Holly Bot
Like you think that they’ll be hurt, mhm.
Corbyn
There is a lot of rules, a lot of practices, and a lot of programs that they utilize to try to fix men to prevent them from making mistakes and doing it again in the future, when their programs and their rules are doing absolutely nothing to prevent any, any damage or further damage. Like right now, I could probably, there’s at least one guy in this unit that has a restraining order that uses someone else’s phone pin to call his girl, right? Like your rules, your 15 minute rules, then all this other stuff is not working, in any kind of way to, to save this woman, from this man, and the DOC does nothing but say that they are preventing this from happening, right? While initiating rules that restrict other people, like me and Holly, and other couples and families like us, from having something available to us, because of this other stuff that is not working. And the other thing is, like when Holly was just saying about these other states doing things differently, that’s huge, but let’s, let’s, let’s bring it closer to home. Holly has shared with me things that even Shakopee Prison in Minnesota has done for the women and their children that men don’t get or they have done in the past. I think Holly shared with me one time that their kids used to stay a day or two over the weekend. I don’t think they do that anymore but that alone is – the women can have it but why can’t the men. So it’s just like the discrepancy between what the women get in Shakopee Prison versus the men and it’s important that the women have to have a stable family and relationship with their kids but the men don’t get that in any kind of way.
Holly Bot
It really does say that mothers are important and fathers are not necessary. DOC policy emphasizes that, um, when there are no, real, notable, special programs for fathers at any of the men’s prisons where, you know, at Shopee, even though, even when they stopped the overnight visit, with the kids, the kids would still come into the prison and spend like a Saturday with their moms, not in the visiting room, in the prison itself, in the gymnasium, um, having meals with their moms. Um, Halloween parties and costumes and all these, you know, decorations, the whole prison would make decorations for these things and, um, I don’t think that anything like that has ever happened in the men’s prisons and men are, fathers are so important. [You have. They’re one. minute remaining.] He says husbands are so important to wives and stuff. I really, you know, and I just bring it back to our communities are better when our families are strong. And so includes every person in the family, not just some aspects of the family. So that’s why I care so
much about these things. I don’t know why they don’t.
Isabella
Yeah. No, this is super helpful that you’re sharing. And thank you, Corbyn too. Thank you so much for joining, and you should join again if you want.
Corbyn
Probably not this time because now I have to wait an hour to get back
Isabella
Oh okay
Holly Bot
Love you baby
Corbyn
I enjoyed this. If you, I told Holly to let you know, um, if you want to email or if you want me to call or something, give her phone number and we can talk in the future or I can ask other people if if they’re willing, you know, just however you can use me or need me. I’m here.
Isabella
Thank you so much, and we’re here for you too. Yes, that would be super helpful if you wanted to ask other…[Thank you for using GTL.]
Holly, you can convey the rest. But yeah, if he wants to ask other people and you can definitely give him my phone number, but I can also message him on JPay, if you give me his OID too, at the end.
Holly Bot
Yes, happy too.
Isabella
Thank you. But this is, it’s very helpful to know that it’s so different in the men and women’s prison and like how it is navigated and, you know, just hearing you talk so positive about your husband, about, and I know your close relationship with Heather. I think it’s so beautiful that you maintain those connections while you’re outside because Corbyn even said earlier, you know, there’s only one person that he’s still in touch with who he’s been incarcerated with.
Holly Bot
Out of sight out of mind, you know, and I think that’s somewhat normal. But it’s all relationships, even if both people are free and were always free, both people have to work right to participate in that relationship and the challenge with the prisons is that they make it so difficult to maintain those relationships, like Corbyn just said this 15 minute can’t can’t call for at least 15 minutes, and then many times when he’s called their phone system is so poor it hangs up on us after 20 seconds and then he still can’t call back for 15 minutes. Call back again and it’ll hang up again after 20 seconds, and so it could be an hour of him calling twice and we don’t get to talk at all and just amazing. I mean, I’m committed to this marriage and to him. So I will obviously wait and answer on the next time, but if this was just a friend from, you know, high school or uh, you know, not a close relative, they are not going to be willing to go through all of that just for a, a casual relationship, and it’s fine to have casual friendships and casual relationships, but those are the ones that, ones that end up dying, because the, the effect, the, the DOC just made a rule this weekend, that visitors can no longer buy, uh, photo vouchers, in order to take a picture, no, you can’t, you can’t buy, uh, photo tickets to take a picture with your loved one anymore. inmate has to buy the ticket.
Isabella
Wait. What? Oh no. That’s messed up, especially with these slave wages. That’s terrible.
Holly Bot
So that’s another example of an unreasonable reason that places distance between families, you know, um, it just doesn’t make any sense, and so only the strongest relationships survive, if there is such a person in that person’s life.
Isabella
Right. Wow. Could you, because you have so much knowledge, Holly, you know, just also for the recording and like for any purposes that we use from this, it could be so helpful to learn from you. What other policies can you think of that make families and loved ones feel restricted inside and outside?
Holly Bot
Well, I think making an appointment in order to visit someone in prison, only Shakopee prison and I think maybe Lino also I think you might not have to make a visit 24 hours, a visiting appointment 24 hours in advance. Shakopee for sure. You can just walk in and visit. It used to be before COVID that all the prisons were open and you just walked in and could visit as long as it was within visiting hours, but now at all the men’s facilities, or most of them, you have to make an appointment 24 hours in advance. And the form is not an easy to navigate form for all people, especially the elderly. Or people without technology, right? Without a way to get on a web page and stuff and so when I have been at the prison, I’ve seen many people turned away. Like listen, if they drove 3 hours to get to that prison to make a visit, only to find out they needed to make an appointment, didn’t know, let them in! But they don’t. Other policies, this, this just happened, you’re no longer allowed to wear sandals or crocs or um any shoe that doesn’t have a toe or a heel. So it’s summer, and they did not announce this policy on any of their websites. They just printed flyers and hang them at the sign up desk. So people have traveled 5, 6 hours to visit someone wearing sandals, because it’s 90 degrees out, to be told you can’t visit unless you go buy new shoes. And that happens all the time. Um. So there are many…I have seen visitors crying and embarrassed because they’re wearing something that’s perfectly modest, but the prison says you can’t wear that for, you know, um, boots, cowboy boots, because they go too high up on the leg. So all of those things, you don’t ever want a visitor making the time to come see someone and dressed like, yes – it’s fine – people should read the rules before they visit and that’s on the website, but some of these rules, I’m telling you, cannot be found written in any policy. You find out when you get there and um so visitors turned away, visitors crying, children crying. I wanted to see my dad, and they can’t because the kids wearing sandals or you know just all sorts of stupid stuff so that’s really hard um. One time I went to a protest at Lino Lakes because there was a little boy who was 5; his aunt brought him to see his dad, and the boy was too loud in the visiting room and so they suspended the dad from having any visits for 6 months. Because the boy was too loud, and they suspended the boy from being able to visit his dad for 6 months because he was too loud. And here’s the thing, in the men’s business, the men have to sit down. They’re not allowed to manage any minors, right, the adult accompanying, the minor has to manage the minor in the visit. So I don’t understand why you would punish the inmate for something he has no control over. He’s not allowed to get a 5 year old to be quiet. And that little boy was so sad because he felt bad, he felt like he caused his dad to be punished. No 5 year old should ever feel that way just because they’re excited to see their dad and can’t calm down [laughs].
Isabella:
No, it’s terrible. It’s terrible.
Holly
There’s no, no toys allowed in there or, or some facilities have a couple of toys, but they’re baby toys. No games. Uh, there’s, it’s an unnatural adult chair that isn’t even comfortable. And so of course kids are going to get a little antsy and a little loud.
So it’s another unreasonable nonsense policy that shouldn’t exist, especially when at Shakopee prison, the mom can get down on the floor with their kids. They can walk around the visiting room with their kids. They get to manage their own kids, even though they’re the inmate. It’s not up to the visitor accompanying the minor. The mother themselves can manage their own children, change the diapers, feed them bottles, play games with them, sit on the floor with them and chase
Isabella
them around. So why can’t the men do that? It’s weird. It is. It’s, it’s so sad. It’s so degrading in so many ways.
Yeah. I think what’s really sticking with me too, Holly was also the really basic, but beautiful and necessary things of being in a relationship. Like you said, I’ve never seen him sit at a table. I’ve never seen him walk around or interact with other people like that.
Yeah. Like when I think about my, even my relationship with Heather, like, yes, everything you said, I have bring seven different shirts every time I go, because I’m so scared of being turned away for any stupid reason. You know, she’s probably only seen me in one outfit because I know that that’s a safe outfit, you know?
And like, I’ve never seen, yeah, I’ve never seen her sit at a table. I haven’t really seen her walk. I haven’t seen her like super excitable, you know, because probably for those reasons it’s restrictive in every way. Never seen her eat. Never had a meal
Holly
with her. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Never had a snack or a meal with Corbin. Yeah. And, um, these are, I mean, I have seen him talk when I come with other guests, like my parents, but that’s not the same as, um, you know, there’s something special about watching your spouse in his element tell great stories where you stand off to the side and just admire and enjoy him. And he’s not aware that he’s being admired.
That will never happen because I’m always sitting right across from him, even if we’re with other
Isabella
guests. Right. Right. In a very restrictive way in those big chairs with no tables and yep.
Holly
Yeah, exactly. And you know, there’s this scary thing too. Many people who would like to get to know him, they are concerned about the experience of going inside a prison, which I, you know, that I can understand it. It can be overcome, but the fact that that makes people nervous.
And today I was visiting Corbin earlier today and guards came up wearing gloves to another inmate, not far from us ended his visit and took him off because the assumption was they believed something wrong had happened.
And then they were going to end the visit and pat this inmate down and make sure nothing wrong happened. But it, it raises everybody’s blood pressure because you see guards all of a sudden acting like police officers ending a visit and sending people away. And you just think, I hope I’m not doing anything they would think.
And so then you don’t act natural.
Well, here, in fact, here’s another stupid rule in, in Faribault prison. I don’t know about the others. I know not at Shakopee. You have to have your hands showing at all times. You cannot, um, if you’re cold, you can’t tuck your hands under your legs or cross your arms and put your hands in your armpits or whatever. Your hands have to be fully visible all the time, or they will terminate the visit.
And I have seen them kick old people out of there, um, because they were cold and like put their hand in their sleeve. Literally this one lady was like 80. She’d only been there for five minutes and she was cold and crossed her arms and they were right away from over there and kicked her out because they couldn’t see her hands.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
So whenever I have someone visit him with me for the first time, I remember the first time I brought, uh, one of, one of my sons who was 23 at the time. And I said, now you have to have your hands showing all the time.
Um, he was so nervous. Um, it’s like all of a sudden, all you can think about is your hands and where are they right now? And you can’t even concentrate on the visit.
And, and so it was very nerve wracking for him. And just, that’s just another example of it. It’s not necessary. It cameras on all of us. And if my hands are hidden, it doesn’t matter unless I reach
Isabella
across the aisle and hand them something.
Yeah. And that’s the thing. They keep the visiting room extremely cold. I’ve noticed that. And it feels very clinical in every way. Like, especially I think, yeah, you said the elders too. I think that’s so real.
Sometimes you can forget because you’re so used to being in the world and doing whatever you want with your hands that you don’t even realize that they’re tucked inside, like close to your body. And that can end up a visit.
Holly
It’s like a bomb shelter.
Isabella
Yeah. No, really. Actually, Holly, that’s so true. It feels like
Holly
that.
Yeah, it does. It does. And at Shakopee prison or when you were last there, but last week they erected bars over all of the windows.
Isabella
Wait, what?
Holly
Yeah. At Shakopee prison, not just bars, like, um, screens that have holes only about half an inch. So like a mesh.
Isabella
Why?
Holly
I don’t know, but they’re iron, like an iron mesh that covers all the windows now, which is bizarre because the
Isabella
visiting room is inside the fence.
Yeah. That’s like, wow. I need to go back and see that. I have not, I haven’t been for maybe a month or so, a month and a half.
Holly
Yep. And so it gives you a
Isabella
different feeling being in there with the, the mesh is padlocked with like locks to the wall and stuff.
Holly
Yeah. It’s very, um, institutional looking, intimidating.
Isabella
Yeah. That’s terrible. Especially for kids, you know, they’re like, why is, why can’t I see the outside? You know, it takes away also a conversation piece. Sometimes it can feel very restrictive, what you can talk about.
And sometimes like with Heather, when I was getting to know her, we would be like, oh, look outside, look at these skies. And now it’s just, it would be so clear. I’m in a prison. You’re here. You’re
Holly
stuck in this room with me. It is very weird. And it sends a message. It just, it just sends a message. However, a person receives it. It’s a harsh, distracting, it distracts.
It’s possible to have meaningful, purposeful. Yeah. Growing relationships with people who are incarcerated. However, um, I would liken them to that. If you, if you see anybody who has a very healthy growing relationship, they are a super athlete, right?
It isn’t for, uh, you know, the, the average person without stamina, you have to be not just willing to endure all the things that we just talked about, but endure them with grace and, um, you really have to be flexible in your thinking.
So, uh, because they moved the men around, Corbin was at Stillwater prison when we first met and then he switched down to Fairboat. Well, originally when he was in Stillwater, I lived an hour away. So I moved and bought a house closer to Stillwater.
And so, uh, then they moved him down to Fairboat, which was more than an hour away from the house that I bought. And I was down to Fairboat. I visit him every visiting day that they’re open. And so four days a week, I would visit him. I still do.
Well, that’s a lot of driving.
If it’s an hour each way, plus it’s not just an hour each way. That’s best if there’s no traffic, but you need to get there early and then you might wait and, and then driving back home for really a two hour visit with him would be a six hour excursion.
So six hours every day, four days.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
A week. And traffic, of course, is terrible. Winter, summer, there’s all sorts of reasons to get said about traffic. So often I was arriving really tense from that experience of, of construction and crazy drivers. And it would take half hour of me to calm down.
And it’s not fun for your loved one to see when you arrive and look harassed.
Isabella
Right. Right. And so true. It’s stressful for them because they cannot, they have less ability to provide us comfort. So when we’re harassed, that just reminds them of all the ways they can’t help us right now.
Holly
So I ended up finding a new home in Faribault, which is where I am now so that I can live near the prison.
Isabella
Right.
Holly
So that I can, it’s 15 minutes. The first time I stayed at the new place in Faribault and went to visit him and it was just 15 minutes across, you know, from the farm over to, you know, the edge of town. And I was so relaxed. I almost fell asleep in the visit because I didn’t, I didn’t have the stress of the drive. I wasn’t all boned up.
Isabella
Right.
Holly
And it was wonderful. And it was transformative for a relationship to, to have that.
And now if I go there and they are closed and they didn’t tell anybody, I’m not mad because I only came 15 minutes, but if I drive more than an hour.
Isabella
Exactly. Yes.
Holly
So it really takes, um, a lot of mental flexibility and, um, perseverance to grow a relationship in this situation. And it is possible,
Isabella
right. Um, but it’s not easy. Wow. Do you think a lot of people in prison specifically, maybe more so on men, but I’m not sure. Do you think a lot of people in prison have fewer relationships outside because of that?
Holly
Yes. Oh yeah, for sure. Uh, or fewer
variety of relationships. I think it’s really important for people to grow, to have personal growth when they have a diverse amount of friends. And we tend to use that word in racial terms. And that is important. Um, but I also think in terms of people who are different from ourselves, um, different types of jobs, um, different gender, um, different types of thinking, different political stances, all these things, because that, um, when you have a problem, it’s the only people you talk to are people who think like you, you have less solutions available.
Isabella
Holly, that’s such a good point. That is such a good point, honestly.
Holly
Yeah. And so what, what we’re describing is the print, this whole system really limits one’s ability to have a diverse amount of support, um, in their community. And, um, so then it limits their, their solutions or their problem solving, even, and I’m talking about groupthink as well. It even limits that. And so, um, yeah, I think that it, it has so many different ways that it impacts the person who’s inside.
Isabella
Wow. Wow. Holly, this has been
Holly
so informative. It’s in many ways. And I think just the way that you are able to talk with such compassion, especially because you’ve experienced this, but you’ve also experienced it now in two different ways, right? Like being inside and being navigating the outside. So I’m just so grateful
Isabella
you said yes to this call.
Holly
Yeah. And well, it’s, you know, an 18 year sentence essentially. And, and, you know, we say that only because of that’s how much time I’ll end up serving supervised by my community, either in a prison or out. Um, and then Corbin with 30 or 40 years or whatever it ends up being, MRA changes things. We don’t know.
Um, and so I remember here’s an interesting, this is an interesting story about Heather and the, um, the skill that a people, a person who’s incarcerated can have just how awesome they can be that usually takes your breath away.
So last year I went down to Florida because my parents winter there, they’re snowbirds. And, um, I wasn’t, it’s going to be my 50th birthday. They wanted me to celebrate it with them down in Florida. So I went down there and I’m very careful to follow the law, right?
Um, I’ve been out of prison more than seven years, almost eight years without any violations, no problems whatsoever, doing a really good job. And I’d been down to Florida before and you just, you check in with the police department, you have your little travel permit from your probation officer and everything.
And, um, I didn’t know it, but things had changed down there. And, um, how do I put this in a way that sounds as objective as possible? Well, in my opinion, there’s just, there’s a corrupt department down there, police department down there, maybe not the whole department, but there’s, there’s corruption in, in their justice system.
And I was arrested two days after I got there, um, for something I didn’t do. And I spent two months in jail there before I was released and allowed to return back to Minnesota in Florida in Florida.
And so anyways, I’m in jail down there and I had told Heather, you know, that she could call me while I was on vacation. And so she’s trying to call me and I’m not answering. And so she doesn’t know what has happened to me, except for that. I went to Florida and stopped answering the phone.
Now there were other people that are free that also wondered where I was that never found me. They just, it just was just a mystery for them. I don’t know what happened to Holly, but Heather found me in that jail and wrote me a letter.
I was like, how on earth? Did this person serving life without parole, who’s incarcerated know where I was and what the address was to write me a letter? And I got her letter before I got any communication from anyone else who wasn’t directly involved down in Florida.
And so I was so impressed by that because there were other people when I got out, I was like, how come you didn’t write me? Well, I don’t know where you were.
I was like, well, how, how would I have found you? That’s what they said. Well, I didn’t know where to look at, you know, well, how would I have known anything? I’m like, my friend who had life without parole was incarcerated, found me. She doesn’t have Google. She doesn’t have the internet.
She found me and wrote me a letter. She said, you have no excuse.
Isabella
Wow. Did, did she say, did Heather say how she found you? Like, did she, was she so worried about you?
Holly
She was so worried. And she used her resources. She started calling all the people that she knew and talking them through how to find me, where to look. She would have never guessed that I was in jail. That was the last thing from her mind.
So it’s not like she said, start searching the jails. She was like, start searching the hospitals. See if you can look up her parents’ phone number, like do all the things. And through that and just many different people looking because she urged them on, that’s how she was able to find me.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
Because she was just determined and motivated people who didn’t even know me to look for me on her behalf and get that information for her. She’s a very competent person.
Isabella
Oh, she is amazing. She is amazing.
Holly
Yes. And can accomplish things you would, that average free people fail to accomplish, even when it’s really important and meaningful. You know, she’s amazing. I’m just very glad she’s my friend.
And like I said, she provides at least an equal amount from her side of the relationship.
Isabella
Yeah. And she says, Holly, I have to tell you, I didn’t really know you, right? I had so much admiration for you, partly because of your book and your talk, right? But also because of everything Heather has said about you. Heather loves you. Like you, you are Heather’s person, I think.
Like Heather is very loyal. She’s very loving. And she will always mention you. It’s beautiful. It’s so beautiful.
So yeah. Even if I don’t answer, she’s like, I was very concerned. I asked Danielle about you. And so I can imagine, Holly, if you were missing, yeah, she did everything in her
Holly
power to find you. That is beautiful.
Isabella
Yeah.
Holly
And how intuitive that she can’t get ahold of me for a couple of days. Yeah. Now there’s people that I go months without talking to, and they don’t file a missing person’s report. They don’t even worry about it.
And when you’re in prison, the lack of knowledge can make you feel disconnected from the community. So that a silence of several days is, can seem very inconsequential. And so for that to still alarm Heather, to me, showed how connected she feels to her community.
Isabella
Yeah.
Holly
And I’m not just talking about an intellectual choice. I’m talking about a subconscious disconnect that can occur. And that she doesn’t have that shows that it’s a real connection to her community, not just a choice, but it’s internalized.
Isabella
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it’s also very much on your part too, Holly, to show how communicative you are with women inside. When so many people can forget, once they’re released, the people that they serve time with, because like you said, out of sight, out of mind, I think you also should see how you are so intentional with how you communicate and uplift those friendships, even though you’re no longer inside.
Holly
Like that really is also on you too. I think that that, well, there’s some truth to that.
I remember being in prison and making calls and no one answering, and it’s really disappointing. It’s understandable. They could be in the shower. Everybody, you know, could be in the shower at the same time. It could happen. Right.
And so there could be perfectly good reason, but it’s still disheartening because of the uncertainty, you know, and when it happens a lot.
And so I determined when I get out, I would always answer that phone. If it rang and it was prison, as long as it’s in my power to do so, because I don’t want to make anybody else feel bad.
And I guess I must be good at it because Heather didn’t assume, oh, I’m just always calling at the wrong time, or she doesn’t want to talk to me. Heather must have known she wants to talk to me. If she’s not answering,
Isabella
she’s dead or in jail.
Holly
Yeah, no.
Isabella
Yeah, exactly. It has to be. Seriously. So, so that’s good.
Holly
And that it’s, um, I wish more people felt encouraged and the confidence of people who are free felt the confidence that it’s worth it to have a meaningful relationship with someone who’s incarcerated.
And, um, it’s not a drain of energy. In fact, it will energize you. It will add to your life, not take away.
Isabella
Yes.
Holly
And, um, then I think if more people had the confidence that these things were true, and I hope this conversation will provide some of that, uh, encouragement to, to get started
Isabella
or to keep, keep going. I love that. And I totally agree with you. I think that’s really beautiful. Beautiful.
And going back to some of these questions too, because I think it very much relates to what you just said. What do you feel like it would mean, or how do you feel like your loved one’s release, whether that’s women in Shakopee, whether it’s Corbin, how do you feel like that
Holly
would impact you or your family?
Well, definitely Corbin’s release would make a big difference for me for a couple of things. Um, I, he is always with me in my mind, like wherever I go, it’s a subconscious. I wonder what he would think of this, or wouldn’t it be nice to hold his hand or stand next to him right now? All the things that you think.
And so every family gathering I go to only half of me is there. And, um, I feel like I can only half participate in what they’re all doing because first of all I’m distracted a little bit, but also they don’t know him either at all, or like I do.
Um, and so it’s almost like, uh, I feel like a ghost a lot of the times at, um, any function that I go to family or, or anything else. It’s just half of me that’s there.
And I cannot wait until he, the other half of me is with and can fully participate for all those reasons we’ve talked about. I can hardly wait to enjoy just watching him enjoy himself and communicate with others and the community celebrate him. I can’t wait to see him celebrated and to enjoy his life and, um, be able to do all of that with him.
And so every day I try to live with full joy every day. It’s the best of my ability and, um, not live in the future. I try to live in the present, but it’s hard not to think when he gets home and, um, look forward to that every day in some way, and even live in it a little bit in some way. And it, it does dim today a little bit because it’s not that.
Um, and you know, I, I don’t know what to think about, about, about that. Um, I’m sure there’s many philosophies about how to live.
One thing that helped me a little bit because it helped Corbin as well. When we were first, when we first met and started dating, he had 12 years left to serve, which is a long time.
And I know that when you’re in prison, I know from experience and from Corbin’s experience that we tend to dampen our enthusiasm because we’re used to things being taken away unexpectedly. Right. Or it’s hard also to bear, um, a large amount of emotional intensity for a long period of time.
And so what we tend to do instead then is mute or minimize all emotions that might become intense until a time where we think it will be okay to bear it. Some future time where it will reach a quick conclusion, which isn’t now.
And, um, I told Corbin, I said, I, I’m not sure that that’s okay. I think that we should become fully emotionally intense in all ways that are healthy without worrying about, uh, do you burn out? Right.
And I told him, here’s the reason I think that. And I could be right or wrong. It’s worked for us, but here was my thought. And this is religious. I hope that’s okay.
Isabella
But yeah, of course.
Holly
The Bible talks about Jesus coming back someday. And the point of it being in the Bible is like, that’s a good thing and, um, look forward to it and, um, let today be the day, you know, and yet hasn’t been yet so far, hasn’t been for thousands of years.
And so the dichotomy of how do I mean to maintain perfect anticipation of Jesus’s return while living fully present and joyful today. And the Bible suggests that that is possible and healthy, or it wouldn’t tell us to do it.
And so I, I just tried to apply that. I said that to Corbin, I’m like, well, um, you know, if I can look forward to you coming home someday, not today, and truthfully, we’re not even sure of the exact day.
Um, and yet live in the moment, let’s, let’s just not worry about the emotional intensity. Let’s, let’s live with enthusiasm for each other and our relationship and that moment of you coming home.
And I don’t think it will harm us today the way we fear. And that has done so much that embracing that mentality to enrich our existing relationship and even grow it, not just allow it to survive this experience, but truly be growing during the
Isabella
experience. It’s really helpful. Wow. Holly. Wow. That’s beautiful. I love how you’re talking about, you’re comparing that return. I think that’s so, so special.
I’m also kind of curious in that same vein, how you feel like you find hope, especially if there’s not a specific outdate, hope for your loved one while they’re incarcerated and the life that you will, you will have together.
Holly
Yes. Oh, and here’s Corbin one more time. Hey cutie.
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Isabella
Hi, Corbin. Yeah, we’re still talking.
Holly
She had just asked a really good question. So you called at a great time. Can you repeat the question for us?
Isabella
Yes, for sure. So Holly was describing, you know, how there is not an outdate, but how you have to find enthusiasm in the everyday together in being with one another. And so I was asking, how do you find hope for your loved one while they’re incarcerated and hope for the future that you both will and are going to have together?
Holly
Mm-hmm. And I was going to mention how right now we have a habeas corpus lawsuit against the DOC to allow Corbyn’s outdate to be changed based on the MRA law, which may or may not happen. We have no idea how that will turn out.
And so it is entirely possible Corbyn could be released this year or next year or next year or at any time in the next, you know, four and a half years. And so that it’s a very weird, uncertain, I don’t even know how to explain what that feels like.
What does it feel like for you, Corbyn, to know that it’s possible you could be released this year or next year or maybe not?
Corbyn
For me, we were just talking about that. Yeah. Every day to just talk on me, me having to wait on the phone, even just for the time that I’ve been sitting here waiting to make people mad that end up having me get upset. Taking a lot of affects me, makes me cautious and,
hey, I gotta, I gotta think about this and stop myself from having a negative impact on my family. So I don’t allow myself to be a part of that in that way. How do you find hope? But I’ll give you an
example. It’s most recent, you know, I believe I have with things falling into place that include being able to get out. It gives me hope that, which is, um, training, developing and managing leaders, right? Leaders of faith, great leaders in the community.
And, and so I’m doing a bunch of research on my own right now, articles in my notebook, and I will cross-reference and basically analyze and research this on my own to be familiar and teach myself about all this stuff in the hopes that I will get out and be able to utilize the stuff I’ve already done through my, my college and preparing for my future now. Um, so that’s where I get a lot of my hope from currently.
Isabella
That’s really beautiful.
Holly
I think something that’s interesting that we recently, me and Corbin talked about with some friends recently was Corbin at least has a lot of people around him experiencing what he’s experiencing.
And so there is some support in that. Simply knowing that you’re in a community of people with similar experiences.
I don’t know anybody else who’s married to someone who’s incarcerated. And so I don’t know anybody who’s experiencing what I’m experiencing. And I do have, um, a family and friends and loved ones. Um, but it’s not the same as, um, someone who knows what it’s like, what, what you’re experiencing.
First of all, for compassion and empathy, which I would think would be a great, but also problem solving, right? Like every new problem, no one else has ever experienced that problem. They can’t even imagine how they would solve it.
So it’s on me to like, I feel like, you know, I’m a Lewis and Clark, you know, like my own land that by myself that no one has ever seen before and, um, navigating pitfalls and solutions.
And so, um, it’s a little harder to find hope because I think many emotions intensify when they’re shared. And Corbin has many men there to share the hope of release from prison. They’re all looking forward to it or wishing it would happen.
I don’t know anybody who’s hoping for their spouse to come home. And so there’s no one for me to share that with. And so, um, I have to look for alternative ways. And that’s just, I think an important thing to mention as far as impact.
Isabella
It definitely is. And so where do you feel like you find a lot of that hope, Holly? Like, how are you able to figure out how to problem solve?
Holly
I think I’m navigating that. Um, I don’t think I’m this good at it. Um, hopefully practice makes perfect and hopefully I’ll have to stop practicing soon and Corbin will be home.
But I, um, try to find meaningful things to do useful things to do with my time to fill up my days, um, you know, volunteering and, um, serving others and work. You know, I do enjoy my work and, um, I think I, I just tried to distract myself quite a bit, a happy distraction.
It could be, but, um, and, and, you know, I, I don’t know that hope is even in that. I think it’s just a, uh, a longing for him to be home that fills my life more than any actual hope of it.
I mean, I know he will eventually be here. That’s helpful.
Isabella
Um, yes. Yeah. And Corbin, I, I want you both together. I, I want to celebrate your love. I want to see you together. I want to see you doing sweet things together. And I know, I know it will happen.
And I think it’s really beautiful how you both are finding meaning and some peace in these calls with each other and the advocacy that you both are kind of oriented around.
So I think this relationship was so beautiful. I’m so grateful to be talking to both of you at the same time about others.
Holly
Thank you.
Isabella
Thank you. Yeah. Big Stan.
Holly
Go ahead, sweetie. What were you going to say?
Corbyn
Did Holly tell you about our story?
Isabella
Yes, she did. It’s the sweetest story ever.
Corbyn
Tell them what you thought of my letter. You didn’t like that letter at all.
Isabella
Yeah. Yeah. But you always thought about her for all those years?
Corbyn
After she, in 2016, when she wrote me, the day that I seen on J-Pay that she emailed me, the name is unforgettable, right?
Isabella
Aw.
Corbyn
And every day, check my email.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
Tell you something super cute about the letter that he sent me and, and the, how we first briefly met in 2016 is the Shakopee prison. And many of the prisons have like a quarterly newsletter that is produced by the inmates.
And it, you know, covers graduations and important events in different people’s lives who are incarcerated. And the men often subscribe to the women’s newsletter. The incarcerated men want to get the women’s prison newsletter and would pick out cute girls in there and then write them.
Like that’s how they would come up and tell me. Um, and I would get a, many women would get, cause sometimes I do artwork and stuff and it would be in the quarterly newsletter or whatever.
Yeah. I knew that that was not how Corbin had found me because when I got that bag of extra canteen items in it, he had put clothes, sweatpants and sweatshirts. And they were like, I think he picked like two X or X, at least it was extra large. I think it was two X.
And, um, and I’m very small. And so it’s two things came to mind. First of all, he didn’t pick me because he was just looking for a certain type of woman, a certain type of look. He had no idea what I looked like clearly.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
And so that was cute. But second, his idea of the average woman was not a Barbie doll. And I was like, that is so cute. Like he thinks the average woman is two X. And so he’s just going to send what is most likely to fit whoever is on the other end of this letter.
I was like, that is cute.
Isabella
Wait. So Corbin, how did you choose Holly? Like, why did you choose to reach out to Holly?
Corbyn
But I was working at Canteen at all parts. Just randomly stuffed these three, three different OID from the newsletter and wrote them down. I stuffed those three random names and OIDs to the bags that I filled.
Holly was the only one that wrote me back telling me not to talk to her.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting because when I did get out and we first started talking, Corbin talked a lot about his dad whom he’d never met and how important it was to him to find out what happened to his dad.
And it was June. So Father’s Day was coming up. And so Fathers became a theme. And then at church one day, someone I don’t talk to that often gave me a book out of the blue she bought for me that was about God is our Father. And that was what the book was about.
So it was like sensing a theme. And so I said to Corbin, would you like me to try and find your dad?
He says, Oh, my family’s looked for a long time. They can’t find him.
I said, Well, I think that God wants me to try because he believes that fathers are important. And also he cares what you care about.
And so I began to look and I found his dad just a few days later. And what’s really interesting is my dad has seven brothers. They live all over the United States. And one of them lives in a tiny town in Alaska, like a couple 1000 people. His dad lived in that same town.
And so I told him, I said, This is no accident that God had you pick me randomly. The woman who was going to send your dad, and my uncle is your dad’s neighbor. Like that’s not random chance. That’s a plan.
Corbyn
Yes, that was kind of fun.
Holly
You can have hope. You know?
Isabella
Yes, that was really neat. Oh, my gosh. Holly, what? No, this was so this was fate. This was fate for both of you. This story is
GTL
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Holly
Yes, I we both believe that it was fate. And you know, there were many things like that that happened to reconfirm for us.
You know, I was even, even though all that had happened, and my family started visiting him, and I thought he was great. I was still nervous, because not because of him. But I went to prison because I make poor choices. I apparently lack good decision making skills.
And so I spent my time in prison, trying to learn better skills, better decision making, but I still didn’t trust myself. I was very nervous. I required a lot of reassurance and sharing my life with others, just to make sure that I’m not being dumb again.
And that, you know, Corbin dating a man who has been incarcerated for a serious time and has a lot of time left to do. Again, that you want to make sure that absolutely sure that you’re doing the right thing, or that lack of confidence will erode everything, even if it’s a good thing.
So anyways, I even broke up with him once for a month before we got married, like a year before we got married, I was like, I just don’t, it’s not you. I don’t trust myself. I’m not sure.
And so here, here was the way that it was really confirmed for us I couldn’t, I couldn’t be away from him. He’s just so wonderful. And so after a month, I started talking to him again.
And so here, here was the way that it was really confirmed for us. And I’m glad that this happened.
When I first met him, his family had tried whatever they could do to get him out of prison, you know, like all inmates do try to, what can they do in their case? And so their family was doing that.
And I felt that same feeling, like, what can I do to help him? It is a lot of work to navigate the legal system. If you, especially if you’re a person like myself, a felon with low social credibility, and, you know, no money for lawyers and all of this.
And so that’s a burden that I couldn’t tackle at the time, but I felt, and trying to help his family if they could do something.
The second was, once we decided we wanted to get married, we needed to find a pastor who’d be brave enough to marry us inside Stillwater Prison.
And so I finally found a pastor and I told him, you need to connect with the chaplain at the prison so that you can do what you need to do to be allowed in.
So he contacted the chaplain who’s no longer chaplain at Shakopee Prison, thank goodness, for this purpose. And that chaplain told him he had no business marrying any inmates. Inmates shouldn’t be marrying anybody. They’re worthless people.
And he scared that guy. He scared the pastor so much that the pastor refused to marry us because he was scared of that chaplain.
Isabella
Oh my God, what a terrible chaplain.
Holly
Yes. So that pastor like disappeared and wasn’t going to do the job.
So COVID happened in 2020. And by 2023, beginning of 2023, visiting was still very restricted. And in order to be married anywhere, you need two witnesses, bride, a groom, and a pastor.
Right. So what that translates to is four people plus the groom.
Well, visiting policy before COVID was a maximum of four visitors at a time, unless there are minors, then you can have up to six, but four visitors at a time.
Well, COVID restricted that to one visitor, then two, then three. Then they said they were never going to open it up to more than three, that they were going to keep that as the new normal.
And so I began harassing, harassing, I use that term, it felt like harassing, contacting the prison frequently to explain that he has a constitutional right to get married and they have an obligation to make whatever requirements are necessary, like a one-time visit with an extra visitor or something.
And the prison just was like a brick wall. They were going to do nothing. They did not care.
And so we’ve been fighting that journey for four years at that point, almost four years.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
So, yes. So there was a lot of burdens.
And so I told Corbin, I said, I’ve been learning about prayer and I’ll take a very good at prayer and I want to learn more about it. Um, and I had read, you know, how we pray easy prayers, like, yes, God wants you to have a nice day and job and everything, but what about the big stuff, right? Can we pray that and just trust that to him?
So I said, let’s, you know what, let’s just pray all this stuff. Let’s pray for a pastor. Let’s pray that we can have, uh, the marriage allowed at the prison and let’s pray that you get out of prison early and I’m done doing all the work for any of it.
I’m not doing any of it anymore. Like we’re going to pray it. And then if God doesn’t do it, it isn’t going to happen. I’m just telling you.
And so he said, okay.
So we prayed that. Well, that was January of 2023. In the beginning of April, Corbin calls me up. He says, you’re not going to believe it. I have the craziest news.
I have a pastor who will marry us. Um, there had been a pastor who was in his nineties that was mentoring Corbin in leadership and Bible study and stuff. And Corbin had asked him, like Corbin decided I need to find a pastor.
Isabella
Oh, he’s not going to do it.
Holly
And so he asked this guy, do you know anybody? And the pastor said, I want to do it.
And Corbin’s like, but you’re over 90.
He’s like, but I want to do it.
And so he says, but that’s not it. He says, I just got a kite from visiting from the prison. They’re going to allow our wedding. We can schedule it whenever we want.
So we have a pastor and we’re allowed to have the wedding.
He says, and one more thing, you know, when we had prayed, we’d also said, I don’t know that you’re supposed to give God time constraints, but we did.
And so we said, we’d really like this all to happen by our anniversary of when we reconnected after I got out of prison, which was May 2nd, which was a Tuesday.
And at the time, all the prisons were open Thursday through Sunday.
So that same week that Corbin got the kite from visiting, a memo was put up that Stillwater visiting was changing its visiting days and was only going to be open on Tuesday.
Isabella
What?
Holly
Isn’t that bizarre? It was so bizarre.
So, of course, I run off to the primary certificate and Corbin calls me later that day. He says, there’s this other memo that came out, something about MRA and us getting out of prison earlier.
And I was like, oh, that’s, that can’t be real. Cause I didn’t know anything about it. This was before MRA had become a law.
Isabella
Right. And it was still in the legislature.
Holly
And, and strangely, and I’m on the receiving end of text from the DOC, whenever there’s news and updates. And I had gotten a text that day about MRA and I just ignored it because I get so many emails and texts, but now this was triggering a bell.
Like, he says, well, I think it, it allows people to get out of prison earlier.
And I thought it was baloney. But then I remembered that text, which said there was going to be a town hall with the commissioner that night on MRA.
And I says, I think it’s the same thing.
Well, he says, can you go to the town hall?
So I did. I went in person to the town hall that night and here’s the commissioner is talking about this new MRA thing, which I guess had just been passed, but right. It wasn’t effective yet.
So afterwards I went up to the commissioner cause I’m used to everything being available unless you’re a murderer or a sex offender, right? If you have a nonviolent crime, all sorts of opportunities for you.
And so I wanted to see if Corbin would really be permitted to do this.
So I went to the commissioner and I talked to him personally and I told him about Corbin, Corbin’s sentence, Corbin’s crime. And the commissioner pointed at me and said, congratulations, he will be eligible for MRA. He will get out of prison.
And so all three of those prayer requests were answered in one week. We didn’t do anything.
And God knows the only way I would believe this isn’t a rumor is if the commissioner said to my faith, he qualified. Right. And he said it to my faith one-on-one.
And so of course we, we got married on the, on the Tuesday of our anniversary.
But since then, there have been times that are tough, you know, the challenges any relationship faces, nothing extraordinary, but just the things that try your patience and your emotions.
And then of course, for me, I want to doubt my own. Did I make a good decision and all of this?
And I know that God is in it because all of those things are so undeniable, like you said, faith, that it gives me the courage to stand strong.
This isn’t Holly, perhaps running down a wrong path. Um, but that this is a path I’m sharing with others. And that has been communicated to me in events and in other people encouraging me
that I’m doing a good job and this is a good thing.
Isabella
It is Holly. This is, I, I am not, a super religious person, but everything I’m hearing from you. I’m like, this is divine intervention. This is God telling you, this is God giving you every sign, even down to the fact that you found his father. No, and that he was a neighbor to my uncle in Alaska.
Yeah. That’s huge. It was, and the randomly picking out three names, you were the only person that replied, not even to actually reply to him, but to tell him to stop talking to you.
Holly
So funny, poor guy. It’s so fun. Like everyday, it’s amazing. It’s, it’s incredible. It’s really incredible.
Isabella
Holly, I love that. I don’t know. I just love this. This is so sweet.
I just have one other, cause I know we’ve been talking for so long, so you’re probably tired and I don’t want to tire you out. Um, but my last question for you, other than like a few follow-up ending things is, um, what stories or lessons do you think the public most needs to hear about people serving in prison?
Holly
So one thing that comes to mind when you say that I think it’s really important to know that people with long sentences are the least likely to reoffend. Yeah.
And we need to stop the, um, beliefs that are not evidence-based, right? Um, we shouldn’t have an unhealthy fear when statistics say it’s unwarranted because, uh, we end up creating, um, an unhealthy environment in our own minds, right?
And an unhealthy division between us and people that, um, probably don’t deserve the fear that we’re putting into things.
So there is that, right? Is, um, the easiest way to solve this problem is to, um, get to know someone who’s in prison and suddenly this isn’t an incarceration experience. It’s a friendship and it just seems so much more normal and relatable.
And I think if everybody just got to know one person in prison that, um, we would have a better, uh, legal system because we would make better lives, right? That, that, um, better reflected the people that we’re serving, not just the public, but we, corrections is serving the people who are incarcerated.
It’s meant to serve both groups of people. And so we need to better serve both groups of people.
Isabella
Absolutely. And that was, that’s so well said too. It’s so well said. I think especially getting involved in this work, Holly, when I met Heather and I had never, ever talked to another person who was incarcerated, Heather is the first person I ever spoke to was incarcerated. It changed. I think it genuinely changed the course of my life.
Holly
Yeah.
Isabella
And I think it’s because yes, Heather is an exceptional person in general, but I think everything you’re saying about that and what that will do to how you think about the criminal legal system, how you think about incarceration, you realize it is the biggest waste of taxpayer money.
Yeah. To keep people incarcerated.
Holly
Me and Heather laughed together because before we were incarcerated, neither one of us knew anybody who’d been in prison and we were both like hardline conservatives.
Isabella
Oh my gosh.
Holly
Pro-life sentences, tough on crime, all this stuff. And so, so now we’re like, boy, we were stupid. You know, what were we thinking?
And, and so we do, I say that to say, um, it’s, it’s not us versus them. It, um, we cannot criticize people who think that way because we used to be those people and we understand why we thought that.
And we can’t beat our own selves up for thinking a certain way. We just happen to have changed what we think.
And I’m not saying everybody needs to change to meet our beliefs. However, um, it is interesting that people like me and Heather who, who served these things at one time would have been happy to give that sentence to someone else.
Right. And now we’re like, but it took us meeting people who were incarcerated, right? Not just being incarcerated ourselves, but meeting other people to realize, you know, that, that was, um, it was harsh and it was an uneducated
Isabella
opinion.
Yeah. Wow. To reflect on that together and be, and laugh about it now, but also reflect on the seriousness of that.
Holly
Yeah.
Isabella
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s for the same reason. Every time I’m with friends and Heather’s calling, I’m like, Heather, would you mind if I put you on speaker and you could talk to my friends?
Not necessarily about her experiences, but just like hearing Heather’s cute little voice, you know, on the phone and it’s just, yeah. And it’s just like such a humanizing experience, you know?
Holly
Yeah. It really is. It’s so important. And I have to say too, you’re a very
Isabella
wonderful person and I enjoy talking to you very much too. And Heather also really appreciates you.
And this is the first time we’ve had a chance to talk for any length of time, but, um, you only confirm, right? All the good things that she has to, you know, I was thinking.
So, you know,
Holly
want to make sure you know that too.
Isabella
That’s so sweet, Holly. I literally feel the same about you.
We’re going to have to get together at some point or visit Heather at the same time if we’re allowed to, if you want to.
Holly
Yeah, we’re allowed to. That would be fun.
Isabella
That would be fun. Yeah. I feel the same way about you. I think Heather has brought me close to so many people, like Shane, Shani’s mom I met and I was like, God, this person is so cool too. Like Nicola is amazing.
Holly
Yeah. Yeah. She is good. She is much more social than I am. She’s more natural at it than I am at bringing people together. I’m, I’m always impressed by that.
Isabella
Holly, I just don’t accept that because I went to your book talk and I saw you and I just can’t accept. I did. I do not agree.
Holly
Well, it’s like my mom visits Heather now has been visiting Heather for about a year. Cause she just was some of the things I was saying about Heather. My mom’s like, I want, I want a friend. I want to get to know Heather.
So she’s been visiting her.
Well, my mom wanted to know what Heather was like, would she maybe call her and stuff? And I’m like, mom, Heather is so busy and like literally blow your mind busy that there’ll be times she won’t be available for a visit and she might not have time to call.
My mom was still getting used to the idea that even though I had been in prison for eight years and they visited me every week, there was any conversation, it was not, not because I was incarcerated because parents, children, what prison population, we wrongly imagined them to be super needy people who will be a drain on our emotional resources. We struggle to see that some other they still thought of me as their daughter, not an inmate.
And so there was, if there was any conversation, it was not, not because I was incarcerated because parents, children, what can you do?
But she still wondered for the rest of the prison population, we wrongly imagined them to be super needy people who will be a drain on our emotional resources. We struggle to see that some other way.
And so I was like, mom, she’s not needy. In fact, you might be offended by how little she needs you.
Isabella
I’m sure she would have. It’s true. I’m sure she would appreciate the visit.
Holly
She will because she’s social, but you will need her more than she will need you. And, and so that’s true
Isabella
so. That is so cute and so funny and so true. That’s so sweet.
I think it means a lot that your mom goes. That’s, I just love that she does that. Your mom is, she sounds so cool too.
Was she
Holly
conservative before you were incarcerated too?
Yes. And they have mellowed out. I think that when you haven’t had a belief challenged in any meaningful way, you just accept someone else’s opinion and adopt it as your own and don’t realize that happened.
And, um, you know, it’s funny when I go to prison advocacy meetings and stuff, most of them are really liberal on the political scale. I’m still ultra conservative.
However, there’s, there’s, it’s wrong to be overly permissive and it’s wrong to be harsh. We need to be realistic and in love and with mercy. And if you don’t have all of those things, right, then there’s a problem.
And whenever I go to prison advocacy, I’m like, okay, listen, I love all that you’re saying, but I just need to let you know. So you don’t feel like, you know, you’re in the room with Alliance, then I’m just going to be transparent. I’m really politically conservative.
And they’ll be like, what are you doing here then?
Well, because it’s fiscally irresponsible to pay for mass incarceration for one thing.
Isabella
Right. I mean, yeah, Holly,
Holly
I’m really surprised by that, but yeah, that, yeah, that’s true too. It is fiscally
Isabella
conservative or irresponsible.
Holly
I mean, yeah. I’m totally an abolitionist. Like, let me spend my money how I want to spend it. And that’s not what I think we should spend it on.
Evidence-based practices shows that it doesn’t work. Right. It’s not spending money, big money on things that don’t work.
And I feel like every Republican should take up that mantra and point it at the prisons.
Isabella
I would vote for you. I would vote for you.
Holly
Yep. But you know, my parents now feel the same way and they are, you know, still conservative voters, but they’re realizing that it’s not about rhetoric. It’s about reality.
Right. And why are we spending money on things that don’t work? And why are we treating people like a business?
Right. A conservative opinion should be less effectively love people and have a safe community. That’s what we should be about.
And I don’t know, I could, I’m not a political person, but if I’m asked, right, then that’s where I would fall. But I’m not, you won’t see me in any marches or anything like that. You won’t see me at any conventions for political reasons.
But I think it’s important to just to get rid of that idea that it’s only one group that cares or that I think that everybody could care within their own frame of reference if, if they just made it personal.
Isabella
Yeah. Right. That’s the thing. When it’s not personal, then you can make sweeping, unkind ideas sound like they’re reasonable and something that you would never allow to happen to your child. You have no problem stating as a public policy.
Holly
Right.
Isabella
So we just need to make it personal. Yeah, I totally agree. We have to encourage people to
Holly
reach out to our loved ones incarcerated. Or find a new loved one who’s incarcerated.
Isabella
Oh, that’s what I mean. Like all of them are our loved ones. The way that I’ve become so staunchly for this. I’m like, everyone incarcerated is my loved one now. That’s a very, sorry, go ahead.
Holly
One time I worked in the, one time I worked in the kitchen and the people who are in segregation have like a special cart. They get fed in their room instead of coming to the chow hall.
So we would fill their trays, load up this cart and it’d be rolled up. And it was my job one day to fill their trays.
So I was giving them extra food. Like let us fill these, these poor people are in seg. They’re having the worst day possible. Let’s give them extra cake.
And so there’s a lady helping me, another inmate, and she was being stingy in what she was putting.
So I, I said, no, no. And I gave a much bigger piece of cake in there. And I said to her, these are our friends. We need to get a bigger portion.
And she looks at me, she says, I don’t know anybody that’s in there.
And I looked at her and I just sighed. I said, these are our friends.
Isabella
Yeah, Holly, that’s right.
Holly
Yep. So even inmates make that mental divide. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a learning process for
Isabella
everybody in compassion. Wow. Well said, Holly, well said.
And then here, I promised I would let you go. So I’m just going to ask one more thing too. Not a question, but so you did say that you created some art and we have featured alongside some people’s stories, some of the art that they’ve made.
So if you or Corbin wanted to share any art for the website or to be featured anywhere else, we would love that. Any art, poems, any creative?
Holly
I would love to. I have a series of drawings that I did of portraits of my children. I did them while I was incarcerated.
And the reason I did them was, you know, pictures are hard to come by. And because people just forget, they think they sent you things they didn’t send you. And that happens to me.
And sometimes years would go by without me getting any pictures of my kids, even though I asked.
And so there were times when eventually I got pictures. I did not recognize my own children. I couldn’t even tell which child was this in the picture, which as a mother, and I love my children. I was not a halfway mom. I was a stay at home mom.
And I was the mom, like I’m in control of my kids. And, you know, I want good things for them.
And so to would have dreams at night, like everybody does, I’m just doing everyday things. And my kids would be in the dreams, like I’m dreaming right at Target, right? And I’m pushing a cart and they’re following me around just I got out, there would be an emotional disconnect, but I would struggle to remain bonded with, I already do artisty things, but I decided to draw pictures unexpected byproduct, but really wonderful, because I would spend like eight hours or more making there were life size portraits by reading something or another, that if you do something with your hands, while you process difficult emotions crochet or draw, while I especially draw a picture of my kids, while I had memories go through my mind, ordinary stuff.
Well, I kept having those dreams after I was incarcerated, but my kids never aged.
Isabella
Yeah, in the dream.
Holly
Yeah. And, and so I became concerned that when I got out, there would be an emotional disconnect, but I would struggle to remain bonded with these apparent strangers.
So I began, and I was already an artist, I already do artisty things, but I decided to draw pictures of the pictures I was getting, so that I could memorize them as they age.
And I did not expect this. But what happened was they started to grow up in my dreams.
Isabella
Wow.
Holly
It was an unexpected byproduct, but really wonderful, because I would spend like eight hours or more making there were life size portraits and bigger than life, bigger than life size portraits of my kids.
And it’s allowed me to, I learned by reading something or another, that if you do something with your hands, while you process difficult emotions, your brain processes them in a different way that’s more healing.
So for me, using my hands to crochet or draw, while I especially draw a picture of my kids, while I had memories go through my mind, was very healing for me.
So I have a whole series of those drawings that are particularly meaningful to me. I would love to share.
Isabella
Oh, I would love to see them. Yes, please. Any way that you want to share them and feel comfortable, you can send them on email, text. I’m so excited to see those. I love this backstory too.
Holly
And Corbin is an artist